Season 2 Final

04.27.2021  |  Season 2  |  Episode 16



SHOW NOTES

In this episode, our last of our second season (!), the Foreword podcast hosts (Drs. Knight, Jipp, Pierce, and Arcadi) reflect on all that we have learned over the past year from our incredible colleagues and alumni.

We hope you enjoy these reflections on our teaching and interdisciplinary conversations, as well as our hopes of carving out space for listening and persevering in hope and faithfulness.

Thank you, dear Listeners, for your time and support. Please be in touch if you have thoughts about Season 3—coming this fall!

Transcript

[THEME MUSIC BEGINS]

Intro
[00:00:00] You’re listening to Foreword, a podcast from faculty at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, hosted by Michelle Knight, Josh Jipp, Madison Pierce, and James Arcadi. Foreword invites listeners into the mission of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School through conversations with faculty, staff, and guests.

Michelle Knight
Hello, and welcome to Foreword. We are your hosts: Michelle Knight.

James Arcadi
James Arcadi.

Madison Pierce
Madison Pierce.

Josh Jipp
And Josh Jipp.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

Knight
Uh, it’s kind of surreal to be telling you guys that right this moment, we are recording our season finale for our second season. I mean, the last couple of years have totally flown by—it’s kind of blown our minds a little bit. It’s even weirder, team—I mean, I’d love to hear what you guys think—but it’s really weird for me to think back on the fact that we have been, like, “Forewording” from home for longer than we were ever “Forewording” in the studio. Like, we did a series, y’all, called “Forewording from home” because we thought it was going to be weird. But here we go—

Arcadi
What did we know?

Knight
We had no idea what was coming. Well, this has been an awesome season. We’ve had the opportunity to chat with some of our most distinguished professors, to talk to some really impressive and active alumni. We’ve had the chance to chat with guests who are on campus, working with our different centers—just all and all, we’ve had time to talk to a lot of different kinds of people doing different work for the kingdom. And today, we wanted to take time to sort of reflect on this season—and reflect, specifically, in terms of what it’s taught us. I mean, we have always hoped that Foreword was more than just filling airwaves and just talking about what’s going on at Trinity. We have  always hoped that this would be a formative experience for us and for our listeners as we learn from each other. And so, we hope that we can reflect today on what we are doing for the good of the church—for the good of this world. And so, let’s take a second to kind of reflect on that formation. What has this season taught us? James, do you want to kick us off?

Arcadi
Yeah, sure! Thanks, Michelle! And, yeah, just always a pleasure to chat with my co-hosts here in this venue. I think for me, one theme that I saw kind of emerge out of a number of our interviews and conversations was a focus on, like, kind of an interdisciplinary approach to what it is that we do as scholars, as professors, as teachers—which, um, which I just really appreciate. I think that kind of resonates with me a little bit and my approach to my scholarship—maybe being a systematic theologian is kind of by nature an interdisciplinary affair, I guess. But nonetheless, I’ve just really appreciated that we’ve been able to have conversations—both with our guests and amongst one another. I recall the episode, the kind of “spotlight” episode, we did where we were talking about pedagogy, and we were talking about how to, like, think interdisciplinarily and yeah, I just really appreciate that I can chat with an Old Testament scholar, two New Testament scholars here, be a systematician, and it’s not, like, super weird or awkward or where we don’t know what to say to one another, but we’re able to actually have these conversations across these disciplines. And then, again, some of our guests were really able to do that as well. I’m thinking about… I really loved interviewing Max Lee, who’s at TEDS for the year—part of the Henry Center Project. And here’s a New Testament scholar, but he’s doing this really cool interdisciplinary project with the Henry Center that’s bringing in contemporary issues in science, and he’s also got this background in ancient philosophy as well that he’s kind of, like, doing into this kind of cool interdisciplinary mix. And, I mean, I just think that’s great. And I just love, too, that this is an environment—a place—TEDS, etc.—where these kinds of conversations seem to be fairly natural. And I can think of friends or other institutions where, I don’t know, people are more siloed off into their own disciplinary areas, and it seems like we’re not in silos. We’re all wandering around the barnyard—does that analogy work? I don’t know—[KNIGHT LAUGHS] but we…we can work together on all of these various things.

Knight
In that scenario—

Pierce
That makes a lot of sense. Go ahead, Michelle.

Knight
No, no. I was going to make a joke and it was going to be so bad. [ARCADI LAUGHS] So please, I’m so sorry I interrupted.

Pierce
Well, we have to hear it now.

Jipp
The world needs to know. [PIERCE LAUGHS]

Knight
No, no I was just going to—

Jipp
Give us the joke, Michelle! [LAUGHS]

Knight
No, I just…I’m not doing it.— [LAUGHS]

Jipp
We’re not…we’re not going to go on until we hear your joke.

Pierce
I’m sorry—I’m so sorry, everyone, that I almost took this from you. [LAUGHTER]

Knight
No. I can’t believe I interrupted…I…no. Well, now I don’t even know that the joke was fully formulated, so, like, now it’s just the worst. But I just wanted to—

Jipp
Here it comes!

Knight
—assign everybody a barnyard animal—[LAUGHS] because of James’ analogy! [LAUGHTER] See? Please take over, Madison, I beg you. [LAUGHTER]

Pierce
I don’t…I don’t know, kind of, uh, seeing myself through your eyes as a barnyard animal would be really meaningful for me, so… [JIPP LAUGHS]

Knight
[LAUGHS] You would be the best of them all. I assure you. [ARCADI LAUGHS]

Jipp
[00:04:58] [LAUGHS] What I…where I thought you were going, Michelle, was—I don’t know if you remember in one of our episodes, where we read a children’s book together—the Mo Willems. Did you…do you remember that?

Knight
You know, I do.

Jipp
Ok. So there’s also this little kid’s book that I don’t know if you’re familiar with, called—

Pierce
Barnyard Dance.

Jipp.

The Barnyard Dance.

Knight
Sure! Of course we know that.

Jipp.

That’s what I…that’s what I thought you were going to…that’s where I thought you were going.

Arcadi
Classic.

Knight
Of course I was going to share the book. Well all of that brilliance aside, now I really want to know what Madison had to say.

Pierce
Uh, beats me. [KNIGHT LAUGHS] Uh, no, I mean, I’m definitely a Sandra Boynton stan, if that makes any difference. [LAUGHTER]

Jipp.

[LAUGHS] There it is.

Knight
[LAUGHS] No, I’m…I meant “related to James’ comment.”

Arcadi
This is so a certain demographic, right? [LAUGHTER]

Knight
[SIGHS] I’m…I have done a terrible thing. I’m so sorry.

Pierce
No, it’s ok. I, um…yeah, as far as interdisciplinary reflections, I mean—

Arcadi
Yeah.

Pierce
—I think that we have seen a lot of…we’ve seen a lot in terms of the integration of theory and practice. And, of course, what a lot of our guests have done is to really press those boundaries that we often artificially kind of impose. And so I’ve been so grateful that we’ve learned from people who are experts in their field. I think of, like, Peter Cha, who’s just this incredible sociologist, but is obviously so engaged in ministry and is doing these incredible projects with Tite Tiénou with the Hiebert Center on multiethnic churches and all of that. And, I mean, at TEDS, we…you know, we do think of the kind of integration of systematics and biblical theology as interdisciplinary work, but at the end of the day, I mean, we have, again, that…the integration of the practitioners, but also sociologists. We have world-renowned anthropologists and—some of whom you’ve met so far, listeners, and some of whom we need to introduce you to as soon as possible, so…

Knight
Yeah. Sure.

Jipp.

Yeah.

Arcadi
Yeah. You’re right.

Jipp.

Yeah. I was thinking…I was thinking very similarly, in terms of—one of the things I love about a divinity school like TEDS is that ultimately, the goal is not just sort of production of knowledge, and therefore, you know, the goal is not just departmental autonomy in terms of, you know, “The New Testament has the right way to do things. Don’t encroach with us,” but that really, we believe that, you know, the biblical studies folk, the church history, theology, you know, as well as the sociologists, anthropologists, people studying world Christianity—I mean, everyone, right? We are all together, trying to build something, because our task is ultimately to know God, to make Him known, and to live out those realities in our lives and in our communities. So, that’s one of the things that’s so attractive to me about TEDS and divinity schools like it, is it’s not just production of knowledge, but it’s ultimately believing we’re better together. And yeah, I love some of the questions that people are asking that are…I mean, Max Lee is a—you know, and his work at the Henry Center—I think is a great example. We’re all motivated in some ways out of our desires for the good, or for pleasure, but what are ways that maybe we’re being falsely formed by going after certain kinds of pleasures and what are joys and pleasures that God has intended for us to be formed in good ways that honor him? So, I think we could go through almost—you know, I think of David Luy and sort of what he was talking about in terms of working together with the Old Testament and theology and church history to be able to say, “How do we read the Psalms and how do we read them well?”—almost our whole list, I think, of our interviewees—people that we interviewed—were in many ways touching on that, so, yeah. How about you, Michelle? What do you think?

Knight
Yeah. Well, I’ve just found that…I was appreciating, especially in that interview with David Luy, that he admitted it’s really difficult to do interdisciplinary work—

Arcadi
Yeah.

Knight
—of any kind. I imagine. I…I was recently talking to a colleague at Gordon-Conwell, and she was talking about how there are so many interpretive cruxes, and there are so many theological problems we come in…you know, practical issues—like, “How do we actually do this?” And the analogy she used was, like, rolling out Playdough—because she’s a mom, so I can, like, really get behind this analogy. But she was talking about rolling out Playdough, and, like, when you flatten the Playdough in one place, it pops up in another, and she said, “So much of the time when we’re solving problems, we’re determining where we’re comfortable with the bump being”—because there’s almost always going to be a bump in our limited ability to totally comprehend God. And I feel like when we have these interdisciplinary conversations, we’re all comfortable with different bumps. And it’s just helpful for me to see that we are all really striving to understand a God beyond comprehension. But, man, it is really helpful to see where my bumps are more problematic than I realized, and help somebody else recognize their own bumps. So I don’t know. I’ve found comfort in being like, “Hey, this is hard. We’re going to…we’re going to work on it together.” But ultimately, we’re going to sit back and realize that God has plenty more to teach us. So it’s a humbling enterprise, I think.

Arcadi
Yeah. For sure.

Knight
Madison, what about you? How has this season started to form you and make you think about things?

Pierce
[00:10:34] Yeah. I mean, of course my reflections on the season are really integrated with what my own personal experiences have been and kind of reflections over this hard year. But, you know, I’ve loved hearing from some of our colleagues who have been—I mean, I think, so often, when I went to prepare for the interview and realized that one of our colleagues had been here since the 90’s, since I was “redacted” years old [KNIGHT LAUGHS]—was just really striking to me and really important. And so for me—one, as somebody who is exhausted and has had a difficult year, and really needs a break—in part, because of the hard work that I’ve been trying to do in advocating for students and advocating for minoritized communities and things like that. So, I’m like a lot of us, especially as white Christians, who are trying to be more intentional in the past year—we’re really tired, but then we realize that our brothers and sisters from those communities have been fighting this exact fight, and they’re not surprised when X happens or Y happens or Zed happens.

Knight
Yeah.

Pierce
But we’re finally paying more attention. And so, one, it’s lamenting that that’s the case for me, but then also, you know, trying to follow in their example of endurance and perseverance in a way that works, and also, trying to figure out ways of self care and advocacy that are meaningful for me. So yeah.

Jipp.

Yeah. I mean, what you’re saying reminds me a little bit of our conversation with Pastor Sandra Van Opstal and the quickness with which she was talking about how her own, at times, exhaustion or anger or frustration when she sees things in the world—and things, quite frankly, that are in the church that are not right, you know? And there are the texts from Amos and elsewhere that are—

Pierce
And Jeremiah.

Jipp.

—really just—yeah, Jeremiah—deep resources for her to bring her prayers of disappointment and lament and anger to God, but…yeah.

Knight
Well, and I was really touched by the episode with Dr. Roy—with Dr. Steve Roy—when he started talking about lament. I don’t lament well. I am one of those stereotypical white Christians who’s really bad at it. And because of that, I imagine there’s a huge disconnect with certain communities and certain people that I interact with, because I don’t always share in their lament well, nor do I acknowledge my own stuff that I need to lament. But he shared a story that’s just been—I haven’t been able to shake it—he shared a story about a young couple who had lost a child and they really had trouble participating in church for a long time, because it wasn’t a place where they felt like where they were was understood and it was so celebratory it felt insincere for them to worship there. And I haven’t been able to shake that, just thinking about whether it’s with a certain life experience or someone from a certain community, just whether our churches are places where they feel like their life experience is understood, and just how monolithic sometimes our churches can be—not only in the faces that are represented there, but in the way we do things. And so that’s been really challenging for me as I reflect on my part in my churches and my part in my community at TEDS and things like that. My goodness, I sincerely hope that we all are working hard to make it a place where people from all of these different walks of life really do feel understood. And that’s…Madison, as you said, you’ve been engaged in this work, and it’s hard work. And I’m grateful for examples like yours and other people on our campus who are pushing us all to think about that more clearly.

Pierce
I’m really good at being a bummer, so yeah. [LAUGHTER]

Knight
A delightful bummer.

Arcadi
[00:14:47] [LAUGHS] Maybe, Michelle, I can just pick up that theme a little bit, because what I was thinking about—what Madison was reflecting on with respect to endurance or kind of faithfulness and what have you—I too was struck by Dr. Roy, by Steve Roy’s reflections. And on a different note, his discussion of standards of success and failure—I think that’s one issue, or one way how I can tend to lose endurance, or lose faithfulness, is to have my ideas of what is successful get skewed and get skewed by, you know, contemporary 21st century North American conceptions of what success is. But his call to be faithful to God’s calling and to see that as the focus and to not use as your rubric some kind of other, you know, evaluative criteria, other than what God is calling you to do—I suppose that just really encouraged me to focus more directly on the mission that I guess I feel like God is calling me. And I think that kind of, you know, encourages more of this sort of faithfulness or endurance in the midst of difficulties and challenges. Yeah, I really appreciate that word from Steve, and that’s one that’s going to be sticking with me for awhile, I think.

Knight
Yeah. What about you, Josh? As you reflect on the season, what has it taught you? What are you thinking about?

Jipp.

Yeah. I think, you know, when I was reflecting back on our different guests and our conversations, I think one of the things that I continue to think about is just how important it is for us to keep learning from all of our brothers and sisters that are following Jesus. So, I loved being able to talk with Charlie Dates and Sandra Van Opstal. I loved being able to hear the episode from Max Lee and so many others, but basically, in terms of how their theologies and their preaching is formed in so many ways within the lived experience of their churches and their communities. And, you know, I think for me, a lot of this started, honestly, when I was an MDiv student at TEDS, and God started to give me, I hope, a little bit of humility to realize that I and my church and background didn’t have—you know, while it brought good things to the table, wasn’t the exclusive or singular “right way” for understanding God and God’s work in this world. So, you know, I think those conversations just continue to challenge me to be asking the questions: “Are my eyes open to the world that we’re living in?” “Do I believe that the Scriptures are really addressing the pains and the joys and the lived realities that make up our world?” So, yeah, I don’t know. I can say that in so many ways. I’m really hungry for the preaching and teaching that some of those guests really embody as they do have their eyes open to Asian American racism or the experiences of immigrants on the west side of Chicago, and are reading the Scriptures, drawing upon the Scriptures, really to address those kinds of lived realities. I just love having the chance to hear how the Scriptures are alive, you know, in the teaching and in the preaching of so many of our guests, so…

Knight
Yeah. I felt that way as we were chatting with Gene Green, way at the beginning of the season, when he was pushing us to realize just how much our theological conceptions were being shaped by the West and the Western tradition. And he was working on so many projects, not just kind of in a token way—including voices from communities in the Majority World—but actually, like, letting them shape the way that theological conversations were being had, and participating in those conversations on the ground there. I felt like Gene reminded me that I need to be a guest in these things, as opposed to the host, and I need to be listening to stories. Because I do feel like a lot of times in our spaces, those voices that aren’t dominant are often—they’re considered “guests,” like, in my syllabus or in somebody else’s syllabus, it’s just like, you know, a voice that isn’t from the majority culture and the white American church—rather than us entering into the conversation that’s shaped by somebody else’s questions that are really different than my own. So I’ve been really grateful for the way this season has pushed me to think of other questions. Like, my framework is shaped by my experience to an extent where I’m just, like, the breadth of what God has to teach me.

Arcadi
[00:19:39] Michelle, I’m glad you brought up Gene Green’s episode. I kind of forgot that was one that we did at the very beginning because it seems like it was like eight years ago or something like that—

Knight
Yeah.

Arcadi
—like, who remembers that far away? But I think that was a great point that you brought up there. And he really exemplified a lot of that hospitality and openness to all of these different approaches and cultures. And he’s also one of the most interesting people I’ve ever had a chance to have a conversation with. [KNIGHT LAUGHS] There’s so many memes of, like, the life experience that he’s had, so that was…thanks for reminding me of that. And I think one of the things that stands out for me in relation to this theme that you bring up here, Josh, with respect to listening to others and kind of keep learning, is I’ve just really so appreciated hearing a lot of the biographical material from our guests. You know, sometimes maybe I might have a tendency to sort of see someone just as an academic and just look at them from, you know, like their writing or whatever it is they teach or what have you. But just to hear where people came from and their educational experiences, their ministerial experiences—I’m going to come back to Max Lee’s talk there, too, and just hearing about him growing up, you know, Korean American churches in Northern California and then down in Southern California are places I know a little bit, and just kind of, you know, seeing how those experiences of his upbringing shaped how he approaches his task right now. And I just loved seeing that—how it is that our histories, our contexts or whatever, influences, then, the ideas that we’re excited about right now that we want to share with the world and that we keep researching. So, yeah, I love these little biographical bits that we get of our guests as we then dig into the issues that they’re excited about right now.

Pierce
Yeah. I loved—I mean, we haven’t mentioned Harold Netland—

Arcadi
Yeah.

Pierce
—but we heard a lot about Harold’s experiences in Japan. And I know it was really striking for me to hear about Peter Cha’s experience of the LA riots, how formative that was for him and his understanding of multiethnic ministries and stuff. And obviously, hearing about our alumni, like Pastor Van Opstal and Reverend Dr. Dates, and their experiences at TEDS, even, you know, were so meaningful. That’s been something that I really loved—that aspect and then also some of what you were highlighting, Michelle, about being a listener. That’s one of the things—just to give a plug to Mosaic on campus—but that’s just such an incredible feature of that, is, a lot of times, the speakers are invited to share, you know, a lot of their personal background. And I’ve just learned so much. I mean, that includes our students. So, that’s been a space that has really helped me to love and appreciate TEDS and to see the incredible students that we bring in. I mean, my goodness. If…if those students are any indication of the, like, leaders of the church tomorrow, then we do have something beautiful on the horizon. Um, so I’ve really appreciated that and I’ve been learning so much.

Knight
Good. Well, I guess I should reflect on the season too at this point. One of the themes that, I don’t know, was really fun for me to explore this season was…we talked a little bit more about teaching and pedagogy in several of the episodes, especially in that kind of…Dana started us in that direction kind of toward the beginning of this season, helping us to think about how we teach and why that’s important and things like that. And even on Twitter, some people started asking more questions about teaching. And it suddenly…it’s occurred to me over the season, as we’ve had these different professors on—like Lawson Younger and President Perrin—talking about the different ways that they conceive of their vocation as a professor and scholar. And I think it was actually Dr. Abernethy—Andy, one of our alumni—he said it best, I think. He talked about how there are…God shaped each of us to be different kinds of scholars and different kinds of professors. And while I think we all know that, it was neat for me to kind of reflect on exactly what the implications of that were this season, and to think about—for example, we often talk in the church about how we all have these different spiritual gifts that we bring, and they come together to, you know, build the body of Christ. But, I mean, in the academy, that is just as true as a subset of the body of Christ. There are certain professors—not…and I’m not even talking about pedagogical approach—but some of us bring a comfort with lament, like Steve and Madison. Some of us bring incredible pastoral care—I’m thinking also of Steve, but even the way that Harold interacts with students. I’m thinking about how some people, like both Nick—President Perrin—and Lawson really highlighted how important it is to them to engage with the academy at large and the secular academy and have a presence there, so that we can not only be respected in those conversations, but have an impact on them. We can actually shape those conversations meaningfully. And so it’s just been neat to hear different people encourage us to think about how our unique vocation here can really have a huge impact on the church and on the different students who come with different passions and different interests and things like that. I mean, Andy—every time I hear him talk, I think about how much more comfortable an athlete would be in Andy’s class than in my class, [LAUGHS] just with the analogies I use and the things I’m passionate about. And I’m just grateful. I’m grateful that God has given us those different gifts and it’s fun to watch how they play out.

Arcadi
[00:25:30] That’s really cool, Michelle. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, maybe on the kind of pedagogical theme there as well, and perhaps kind of combining a couple of things in my mind—I think one thing that has struck me in some of these interviews wherein there was a more perhaps a pedagogical focus or one where sort of classroom engagement was present, is just, like, the relationality between teacher and student. And, just call it even, like, the love between the teacher and the student for…in these kinds of environments. That seems to just kind of exude from a number of our colleagues, and one that has been encouraging me as well. And, you know, when we think about what it is to teach, what it is to be in an educational environment like a seminary, really at the core of that, I think, is this teacher-student relationship there—professor-student relationship. And any kind of knowledge transfer or skills acquisition or what have you, is really just sort of secondary, or kind of rides on the back of this relational encounter between us and our students. And I feel like I think that, or I have that maybe implicitly in my mind, but to see this come out in the ways in which our colleagues were speaking about their approach to the pedagogical task I think has been really encouraging me to want to continue to foster that in my own approach to what goes on in the classroom—or outside the classroom too in terms of the relationality with our students.

Pierce
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, in a sense, that’s one of the harder things that we’ve experienced this year, because our relationships are in a lot of ways shifted or changed or whatever. But, I have no doubt that there are students that I haven’t been able to connect with in the same way as I would have if we had been, you know, taking a water break and had the chance to say, “Hey, what’s going on with you?” But I do feel like I’ve still been able to have those meaningful connections—especially with those who have come to office hours. I don’t know if, like, if Zoom, if being in their own space, it just enables them to just settle a little bit, but I have enjoyed that. And certainly still—shout out to my exegesis sequence over the past year—they’ve, you know, we’ve been on Zoom for a lot, and we do it in the evenings on Tuesday, and they’ve been so fun. [KNIGHT LAUGHS] So, you know, it’s not like we’re not having a good time. So that’s really nice, but, you know, certainly looking forward to additional connections with them and stuff, so…I don’t know. I feel like I had something else I was going to say but I lost it, so…

Jipp
Yeah. I don’t have much to add, I think except, you know, to basically reaffirm the many different episodes where, even if it wasn’t always the point of the conversation—the professors, the pastors, the scholars that were…that were so obviously demonstrating that they do what they do, not only that they love the “subject matter,” which we all do, but just because they love people and Andy Abernethy is just like—Madison, you had him as a professor for a little bit…you too, Michelle, or just Madison?

Knight
No, just Madison.

Jipp
You know, he just so clearly just attends to and pays attention to the people that are in his class. And Peter’s episode too, I mean, anyone that hears Peter talk one time, or spends…or Steve, I mean, really all of them really, it’s like, it doesn’t take long—even if they’re not talking about pedagogy per se—to get a sense that they love their students and they see them and are listening to them and are paying attention to them. So, yeah, I think we just continue to meet more and more faculty that are like that, and just all of us to keep reminding ourselves of the importance of transformation really, often, coming out of relationships. Yeah, thanks, James.

[THEME MUSIC BEGINS]

Pierce
It’s good you could muster your reflections on teaching despite your research leave, Josh. [JIPP LAUGHS]

Knight
Oh, burn!

Jipp
Yeah, “I think I remember doing that once.” [LAUGHTER]

Knight
Wow. Wow.

Pierce
[00:30:00] Well, I think that—

Jipp
Do I have something else that I need to…ok. [LAUGHTER]

Pierce
No, it’s me. Um, I think that probably brings us to a good conclusion now that we’ve finally gotten a chance to rib Josh. So that’s just the Foreword. We hope that you’ve enjoyed these reflections about what we’ve learned this season in our conversations with our faculty colleagues and inspiring TEDS alumni. That’s a wrap for our second season, but we’ll see you again soon. As always, I’m Madison Pierce.

Jipp
And I’m Josh Jipp.

Knight
I’m Michelle Knight.

Arcadi
And I’m James Arcadi.

Outro
Foreword is a podcast hosted by faculty at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. The views expressed by the hosts and guests of Foreword do not necessarily represent the views of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. You can subscribe to our newest episodes on your preferred podcast app or at forewordpodcast.com. Be sure to follow us on Twitter and Facebook @forewordpodcast to get updates and additional links to content. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School is located 25 miles north of Chicago, with extension sites across the country and online. Trinity educates men and women to engage in God’s redemptive work in the world by cultivating academic excellence, Christian faithfulness, and lifelong learning. You can find more information at teds.edu.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

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