FOREWORD


Interview with Dean David W. Pao

09.07.2021  |  Season 3  |  Episode 2




SHOW NOTES

“Dean David Pao: On Theological Education, Reading Scripture Well, and Life as a Pastor’s Kid”

In this episode, Dr. Madison Pierce and Dr. Josh Jipp interview Dr. David Pao, the newly-appointed Dean of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. David is not only Dean of TEDS, but is also Professor of New Testament and an accomplished author and scholar.

Josh and Madison talk to David about the key experiences that led him to vocational ministry, including encounters with doubt and the role of Scripture in shaping his way of seeing reality. The conversation then shifts to what David perceives the key challenges to theological education to be, and he maintains that a strong commitment to what Christians hold in common enables a community to interact charitably with one another, even in the midst of differences and struggles. David also shares about his recent research on the Pastoral Epistles, the importance of cultural context for biblical interpretation and his excitement about the ability of Scripture to speak subversively to cultural norms.

Along the way, listeners will discover:

  • David’s favorite places to travel
  • David’s favorite extra-canonical book to study
  • Which member of the Foreword crew’s mom pranked them with the help of David

Finally, David shares a pastoral word on the true meaning of success in ministry as an alternative to the common desire for success and popularity.

To learn more about Dr. David Pao, see his excellent commentary on Colossians and Philemon, his book Acts and the Isaianic New Exodus, or you can watch his recent chapel message here.

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Transcript

Madison Pierce

[00:00:00] Well, we were wondering if it would be okay if we took a little bit of time to lead the faculty through some physical activity.

Josh Jipp
There’s, uh, just…obviously, academics live a pretty sedentary lifestyle—

David Pao
Sure.

Jipp
—most of them in this digital age. So I think we were just thinking it would be for, like—since we’re spiritual, physical, beings—like, we could actually just do some—

Pierce
You were thinking, like, calisthenics.

Jipp
—calisthenics, yeah.

Pierce
I do yoga, so we were thinking we could do some of that. Does that…do you think we have a little bit of time in the schedule?—

Pao
Sure. After lunch.—

Jipp
You could just start…start with the hands, you know?—

Pao
Okay.

Pao
Yeah.

Jipp
Really? Would you be willing to do it with us, David? [LAUGHTER]

Pao
Wait. Should I pray for you? Get back to you?

Pao
He was totally going to go along with it, wasn’t he?

Jipp
Yeah, I know. I know. [LAUGHTER]

[THEME MUSIC]

Pierce
Welcome to Foreword: A TEDS Faculty Podcast. I’m Madison Pierce.

Jipp
And I’m Josh Jipp.

Pierce
Today, we’re so excited to interview Dr. David Pao, the newly appointed Academic Dean for Trinity Evangelical Divinity School—and Professor of New Testament. Prior to becoming Dean, David was the department chair for Josh and me in New Testament, so we are particularly excited about his leadership. David has degrees from Wheaton and Harvard, and his wife Chrystal is a biology professor at Trinity College. So David, thank you so much for joining us.

Pao
Thank you so much. It’s wonderful to be here. Your podcast is just…famous. I would die for it, and…just wonderful to be here. [LAUGHTER]

Pierce
Thanks, David. Pao: our hype man. [LAUGHS]

Jipp
Yeah, absolutely. Well David, let’s start with—let’s just get straight to the serious question. Who’s your favorite faculty member?

Pao
You, of course. [LAUGHTER]

Jipp
Oh, that’s right. No, um… I think our listeners would love to hear a little bit about, what were some of the foundational experiences you had that sort of led you into vocational ministry?

Pao
Yeah, I grew up in a Christian home, and being a sixth-generation Christian is a bit weird because my…a whole bunch of them were pastors, and so I grew up wondering, “Is my faith real or not?” So, like, any other good P.K. I was converted at six, and then started doubting, and then reconverted at 12, and then started doubting again sophomore year, and then….but, in Jr. High, I remember listening to a message in a revival meeting, and decided to dedicate my life to full-time Christian ministry. But that was in Jr. High. And then I decided to be a Greek major at Wheaton, and moved on to an M.A. and M.T.S and all that. So, yeah.

Jipp
What were some of the—you mentioned that you had different periods of doubt? What were…how did you navigate those, or I don’t necessarily want to say “overcome,” but how did you, you know, come out stronger in terms of your faith when you experienced doubt?

Pao
Yeah, several periods: First, I thought it was really weird that I—my experience—you know, I was fully converted, but at the same time, wondering “Am I really born again?” And then at Wheaton, with so many P.K.’s and M.K.’s around, I realized that we had a common experience: Converted at six, doubting at 12, and all that. So we struggled together in some ways. But, in graduate school, I realized that I was about to be a pastor, and I did not feel like I had the “real” faith—the authentic faith. But then, my first wife, who struggled with cancer and then passed away. And that really forced me to ask, “Who is God? Is He there? Is He present with me?” And so that was the most formative spiritual experience of my life, convincing myself that, indeed, God is real and there is a different reality out there. So that has been my focus in my preaching—that there is some reality out there that we cannot see. So in reading the Bible, then, that has forced me to look beyond the text into the reality of God. And convincing me that what I see is not all there is to it.

Pierce
Yeah. Oh, thanks, David. It sounds like…so, knowing that your family was in ministry, and knowing that you have these really deeply pastoral elements in your own story, what led you into academia? You know, how did you end up here at TEDS?

Pao
Yeah, when I was in high school—and at that point in Hong Kong, it was a confusing time. It was kind of like pre-post-colonial times—so we know that British rule is coming to an end. So at that point, many questions that we have in terms of culture, in terms of faith, in terms of society, and many theologians have been speaking up and responding to the situation. But then I ask, “What about the Biblical text? Is that important to me?”

Pierce
Wow.

Pao
“And how is that going to change our mind and change the way we see reality and society and culture?” So, you know, seeing theologians speaking on behalf of their faith, I thought it would be fun to have a Biblical scholar to speak on behalf of the text—force us to read reality using the lens of the text. So that is kind of what led me to New Testament studies, and I went to Wheaton and became a Greek major and all that.

Pierce
[00:05:23] Yeah, if I can follow up. What are some of the ways—so you were talking about how the text speaks into the cultural experience that you had in Hong Kong. What are some of the ways that that experience—or that kind of underpinning, or that foundation for your studies—how did that play out as you moved forward in your career?

Pao
Yeah, I guess growing up in a Christian family, I had a deep sense of…not happy with how the Biblical text was used. And I hear people repeating the same moral story, and giving standard answers—short answers—and not treating our questions seriously. But then, I thought, “I need to find new answers,” “I need to read the Bible in a new way,” “Is there anything that’s surprising to me?” “Is there anything that will strike me as odd?” “Is there anything that will break my own way of reading reality?” So a subversive reading, perhaps, I felt early one, probably because of my own sense of unfulfillment in a sense—not being satisfied with the answers I am hearing and I am receiving.

Pierce
Yeah. Wow, that’s so interesting.

Jipp
Well, David, if…I think you know that it’s more comfortable for me to joke and tease you as opposed to flatter you and to be sincere, but— [LAUGHTER]

Pao
Please try. [LAUGHS]

Jipp
—to our audience, if you’ll permit me a short story.

Pao
Oh no.

Pierce
Phew. [LAUGHS]

Jipp
I was, you know, 21 years old, a youth pastor looking to go to seminary, and I happened to be in the back seat of a car on the way home from a conference with Grant Osborne. Grant said, “You know, you really shouldn’t give up on TEDS. We’ve got some outstanding young, new faculty.” And he mentioned David Pao.

Pao
Oh, really?

Jipp
And then I was like, “Okay,” and then it was one week later and I got my acceptance letter. My formation group leader? David Pao. So I read Acts and the Isaianic New Exodus, I’m in David Pao’s formation group, and he—David—was an incredibly influential New Testament scholar and teacher for me. So I’m going to stop with the sincerity and flattery at this point [LAUGHTER]—

Pao
No, I need to interrupt you. I remember— [LAUGHTER]

Jipp
I know it’s uncomfortable. I know it’s uncomfortable.

Pao
I remember those days we had a really small formation group—

Jipp
Yes we did. Yep.

Pao
—but then Josh was a really faithful attendee. Every single week he was there asking questions and interacting. It was wonderful.

Jipp
Yeah, well thanks. Thanks.

Pierce
A man of the people, if you will.

Jipp
[LAUGHS] Yes, exactly. [LAUGHTER]

Pao
He used to be nice, you know. [LAUGHTER]

Jipp
So all of that to say is, I and others know you as just a really wonderful and gifted New Testament scholar. But now you’re Academic Dean at TEDS, and I’m thrilled, but I’m sure you must see this as an important moment in the life of theological education.

Pao
Yeah.

Jipp
What do you see are some of…both the challenges that we have right now as well as why you think it’s worth actually being Academic Dean to try to give some answers to those challenges?

Pao
Right. Yeah, challenges. I think ideologically, we are considered to be a relic of the past; and socially, we’re considered to be oppressors; and culturally, we are irrelevant, perhaps; and politically, we sometimes are portrayed as being manipulated into the support of particular parties and agendas. And it is difficult to interact with culture, in a sense, with society being polarized. And I think the first step we need to do is we need to focus on the center—to focus on the Gospel; to focus on the text. And I think the stronger that we stare at the text, the easier time we have in negotiating that which is important for us elsewhere. And so, to be faithful, you know, to the Gospel, and then to be able to interact charitably with all that is surrounding us is important. And in a polarized society, I think theological education is to provide a space for dialogue. And it’s not simply to transmit data, but it is to provide a space for meaningful, theological dialogue and interaction. That’s what it is.

Jipp
That’s great, yeah. So you envision one of your goals or tasks as basically providing those spaces for where all of us can come together and talk about, “What does the text say?”—

Pao
Right. Yeah.

Jipp
—and hopefully in a way that won’t lead into tribalism—or just entrench tribalism.

Pao
[00:10:06] Right. I think if we hold onto the center, and reaffirming our common creed, then we will have room for debate and dialogue. But we need to resist being pulled to one side or the other side. So, you know, Trinity is known for being able to nuance material—the way we present the Biblical Gospel. And we should continue to do that.

Jipp
Yeah, that’s great. Thanks.

Pierce
Amen. Thanks, David. Moving in a slightly different direction, I think that, even as Dean, you’ll still be teaching—maybe not immediately, but you’ll be back in the classroom before we know it. And you’ve typically taught classes on New Testament backgrounds and 2nd Temple literature. Why do you think that some of those courses are essential to our New Testament program here?

Pao
Yeah. I think it is important to be able to read the Biblical material in light of those extra-canonical texts, because we need to see what’s surprising to today’s audience and what the author is trying to say. I believe that meaning resides in the interaction between text and context. So to know what the author is saying, we need to figure out how he’s correcting the misunderstanding in the culture. One example: reading Jewish apocalypses, let’s say—it’s easy when you’re being oppressed for 500 years to consider the “other” as the enemy. So Satan resides in Gentiles—they are the evil ones. In light of that, reading Revelation 2 and 3, it’s surprising to me that John would, in his own apocalypse, would criticize a church although they were still being persecuted. That he would first criticize a church by saying, “Why are you guys talking about ‘evil’ being in the ‘other’? Wait, isn’t evil in you as well? Are you being controlled by Satan? Are you controlled by the evil one?” So, instead of—as in many Jewish apocalypses—instead of beginning with a critique of the Gentile pagan culture, you find John criticizing our own, saying that the evil resides in ourselves. So that is a good reminder for us as well. Now, it’s easier to identify “that person” as being evil—“that country;” “that culture” as being evil. But John is saying, “Wait. Look within yourselves. The evil resides in you, perhaps, too.” So, yeah. So comparing the Biblical material to the ancient texts, then you’ll find what the inspired text is saying—what is surprising, what is amazing, what is subversive.

Pierce
Yeah. Wow, that’s a great example.

Jipp
Yeah, disrupts your expectations based on what you think you’re going to see, right?

Pao
Right, exactly. Yeah.

Jipp
Yeah, yeah. What would you say—let me see if I can guess [LAUGHTER] what your favorite extra-canonical Jewish book is. Do you have one picked out?

Pao
It’s not Jewish, but—

Jipp
Oh, it’s not Jewish! I was going to pick Tobit. It’s not Tobit?

Pao
Tobit I would say is Jewish, perhaps. But I’m thinking of an early Christian apocrypha.

Jipp
Oh, early Christian. Oh.

Pierce
Early Christian apocrypha…

Jipp
Acts of Paul and Thecla?

Pao
Part of it, perhaps.

Jipp
Okay.

Pao
But I’m thinking of the Infancy Gospel of James.

Pierce
Oh, excellent!

Jipp
Ok. Ok. Why? What do you love about it?

Pao
Because there you find—you know, written by later…written by Roman Catholic theologians, so to speak, defending Mary, saying that, you know, if Mary is the mother of God, she must be unique, she must be virtuous, she must be holy, and she must be separated from humanity. And there, you find the entire work focusing on how special Mary is. And I find the rewriting in the Gospel of Luke 1 being quite interesting. You know, in Luke 1, you find Elizabeth being with Mary, and there you’ll find Elizabeth saying, “You are blessed among all women, because you are the mother of God,” so to speak.

Pierce
Yeah.

Pao
And then, you’ll find Luke then giving the second word of blessing through Elizabeth, saying, “Well you are blessed because you are obedient.” Then, the question is, “What is more important—is it to be ‘blessed’ because you are the unique mother of God, or is it more important to be ‘blessed’ because you are obedient to God?” And I think in Luke, the latter became more important, that Mary was honored and venerated—not because she was the mother of God, but she was faithful to the end, among the 120 or so praying in Acts 1, waiting for the Spirit. But, in the Invisible Gospel of James, insisting on the unique status of Mary, they will take away the second word of blessing, focusing only on the first word: “You are blessed because you are the mother of God.” So reading the apocryphal material will highlight to me the striking parts of it that you don’t find in the canonical stuff. So, without the apocryphal material, at times, even the earlier texts, what they try to focus on can be missed.

Jipp
Yeah, yeah.

Pierce
[00:15:02] Yeah, that’s a helpful reminder. I wasn’t expecting you to go post-canon, or post-canonical, but those texts are really interesting pieces of reception of—especially the earlier Gospels. Yeah, absolutely.

Jipp
Yeah. I have all kinds of personal anecdotes. It’s making me—[LAUGHTER]

Pao
[LAUGHS] Oh no!

Jipp
—I don’t know, I had “New Testament Apocrypha” with David—

Pierce
Oh, excellent.

Jipp
—and I still remember…I think it was Pseudo Gospel of Matthew…working on it. And it was like, “Hey, they do the ‘proof texts,’ or, you know, the fulfillment quotations, but there’s no interest in salvation history.” You know, it’s just sort of a…yeah.

Pao
Yeah, yeah.

Pierce
Yeah, that’s good.

Jipp
Well, I was really hoping to get into more Tobit, but maybe we’ll save that for another podcast. [LAUGHTER]

Pierce
[LAUGHS] We’ll have you back just for extra-canonical texts.

Jipp
Yeah. Just a Tobit podcast.

Pierce
We may be the sole audience. I hope that’s not the case, but…oh, goodness. [LAUGHTER] Well, going back to the canon, and you may have some more extra-canonical nuggets of wisdom for us here, but I know you just completed a commentary on the Pastorals.

Pao
Right. Right.

Pierce
And I wonder if you have some general words of wisdom about interpreting the Pastorals, especially in our present age, and maybe some of the themes that you would want to see highlighted in our discussions.

Pao
Yeah. It’s an interesting project I worked on for the past ten years or so. And the term “subversive,” again, is important. You know, in the past, we considered the P.E. to be the handbook for the church—

Pierce
Yeah.

Pao
—and then someone said, “No, not the ‘handbook,’ but it’s a response to heresies.” And then, others would say, “No, it’s not exactly that, but it’s someone else—not Paul—putting out, writing, this particular collection of works, reflecting—an accommodating stance, that, you know, ‘forget about the striking, subversive Gospel.’” Here, you have a second-generation people conforming to mainstream society, so you find foreign vocab in the Pastoral Epistles; you find “un-Pauline” materials, some would say. But then, my reading is that those were probably intentional on the part of Paul, and Paul is trying to be subversive, using vocab you find elsewhere, and making a point in challenging culture and society. One example: 1 Timothy 2—

Pierce
[LAUGHS] I’m familiar.

Pao
No, 1-6.

Pierce
Okay, yeah. [LAUGHTER]

Pao
—2:1-6, praying for the emperor and not to the emperor. And so that seems to be Paul’s way of saying, “Yeah. We respect the emperor, but he’s not God.” So he would say, “Pray for all of the people first, and then pray for the emperor.” So the emperor is subsumed under all of the people, and being relativized under all the people. And then, he would go on to say that there’s only one God and our Savior. And he would say that there’s only one mediator between God and humanity, and that’s Jesus Himself. So that, to me, is subverting the dominant ideology of the time. It’s not simply anti-imperial, though, because you find, say, in chapter 4—4:12, and I memorized the verse when I was really young, “Let no one despise you because of your youth.” And there, you know, recognizing the honor-shame language, Paul is using that language, in saying that, “Even the younger folks among us—they are the honorable ones—not simply the king, not even the elders, but the younger ones.” And then, in chapter 5 verse 3, you find Paul saying, “Honor the widows.” So you find the same pattern, you know, not honoring those who are honorable, but honor those who are on the margin. So you find a consistent interaction with culture and subverting the entire “honor and shame” framework, in saying that, “In the family of God, there is only one people of God,” and we are all equal in some ways. So it’s that subversiveness that I find throughout 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus that’s surprising to me. And so, it is not exactly a static handbook, it is not simply a response to heresies, it is not accomodating for sure, but it is subversive to me—that in every single paragraph, you find Paul subverting the ideology of the time.

Pierce
Mmhmm. Feel free if you want to follow up with more examples, but the subversiveness that you’re describing there sounds an awful lot like other Pauline texts. I mean, that is bringing to mind Philemon, for example—

Pao
Exactly. Yeah.

Pierce
—but there are other ways that Paul shapes that.

Pao
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Because in chapter 6, you find—talking about Philemon—in 1 Timothy 6, you find Paul using benefaction language and applying that to the slave—

Pierce
Yeah.

Pao
—saying that “You can be the benefactor, and not simply the client.” Again, subverting the entire system, and saying that “Those on the margin can have a place at the table.”

Pierce
[00:19:56] Yeah, that’s a great point. Oh, and before we move forward—I don’t know if you have more follow up on the Pastorals—but it’s in the Brill commentary series.

Pao
Right.

Pierce
Will you plug it a little bit? So what series is it?

Pao
Yeah, it’s called The Brill Exegetical Commentary Series, and it’s edited by Stanley Porter, focusing on not simply context, but also language as well. So, yeah.

Pierce
And when can we look forward to it?

Pao
Before I retire, I hope. [LAUGHTER] I submitted it in December, so still waiting for the process to go through.

Pierce
Okay, wonderful.

Jipp
Oh, nice. That’s good. That’s good. Well, we could talk about the Pastorals all day, but we probably don’t have time, right?

Pierce
I don’t know why you’re looking at me. You’ve got a watch. [LAUGHS]

Jipp
Oh, okay. Um, I know another important thing about you is you’ve traveled extensively, doing conferences, preaching and so forth. What’s…do you have a favorite place—favorite place to travel?

Pao
Yeah, um, I do. I have probably two.

Jipp
Okay.

Pao
I’ve been there more than once—Athens and Barcelona. Those two places—Barcelona I gave a commencement address one time, but what is memorable in both places is that I was able to bring my daughter there. Because they are twin girls, it’s easy to have…to consider them as interchangeable at times, so at one point, I decided to be intentional and to bring one girl at a time to trips. So I brought one to Barcelona, and it was wonderful, and I brought one to Athens. And for both of them, those were really memorable times, and for me, it was really important too.

Jipp
How old were they at the time?

Pao
Um, Athens for Charis…this would be two years ago. They’re 21, so 19.

Jipp
Okay.

Pao
And Barcelona for Serena, 3-4 years ago.

Jipp
That’s really cool.

Pierce
We actually…we probably…we were in Barcelona…It may have been more like 5 or 6 years ago, but yeah, we really loved it. We say that that’s one of the places that we could live out our days. It’s just sunny and beautiful and…

Pao
Yeah, Serena’s still trying to get me to take a sabbatical and go to a coffeehouse with her for half a year in Barcelona, [LAUGHTER] be a barista, serve coffee—

Pierce
[LAUGHS] That’s amazing.

Jipp
[LAUGHS] Why not? That sounds like something I would do.

Pao
Yeah, so I’ll be applying for a sabbatical soon, I guess. [LAUGHTER]

Pierce
Amazing. That’s great. And anecdotally, I think the first year that I was teaching here, every time I emailed you, it was like, “Well, I’m in Melbourne,” or “I’m in Hong Kong.” [LAUGHTER] I’d be like, “Oh my goodness!” So I’m pretty sure that you have some kind of time-changing, or time-altering device—a time turner or some kind of tardis or something that you’re using to travel the world, but we’ll let you keep your secret for now. [LAUGHS] Um, another thing is, you know, we’ve got space to think about the future now. And obviously, we hope that there are a lot of things in TEDS legacy that will continue on, but also hope that you have some bright ideas for where we’re headed. So what are some of the things that you hope for us in the future?

Pao
Yeah. I think at this point, emerging from Covid, we need to rebuild our community to be able to live within the same community, being honest with one another, and also to affirm our differences. At times, we think of the “good old days,” when we were different, or… but then, we were always in dialogue in the past, struggling with issues and being faithful in our struggles as well. And I think that needs to be continued—that we are one community, but we need to struggle and we need to be voicing out our concerns. And we need to be different as well, having the same Gospel. And at the end, if I were to ask, “What is ideal theological education?” I would say, “Well, we should probably focus on the ideal pastor that we are trying to produce.” An ideal school is not one with a big library. It’s not one with a great building. But it’s one that’s able to produce an ideal pastor. An ideal pastor, to me, is one that’s able to admit and see his own or her own impotence, and thus, relying on the Gospel of the cross, but at the same time, be able to proclaim the powerful word of God in different settings, and at the end, being subversive by saying that, “Look beyond to see a different reality through the Gospel that I’m preaching and that I’m living.” So, it’d be tempting to build the best TEDS there is to it, but I think it’s far more enticing to build the best school to produce the best pastor. So that’s our goal—to be able to produce a good, faithful servant of the Gospel.

Jipp
[00:25:05] That’s great. I love—I want to highlight—I love how your definition of the “best pastor” is one that is subversive, in terms of what you said. It’s not one that’s accruing power or popularity or great personality, per se, but it’s one that’s proclaiming the word of God, right? Out of that person’s own humility, weakness, you know…that’s obviously something we look around and see that we need really desperately right now.

Pao
Right. Yeah, I think John Welsey got it right, and he would say that, you know, “The reason why we need revival is because we had revival in the past.” We had revival in the past, producing good Christians, and they became successful. They became powerful. And then they relied on themselves. And then, we need revival again to be humbled and to recognize the Gospel, which is far more powerful than we are.

Jipp
Yeah, that’s great. That’s great. Thanks, David.

Pierce
Yeah, well, I think—do we have anything else we want to follow up with? We’ve got a little bit of space.

Pao
Hopefully not. [LAUGHS]

Jipp
Well, we could always go back to Tobit. I don’t know. [LAUGHTER]

Pierce
Actually, before we go, there is one more thing.

Pao
Uh oh.

Pierce
I have heard some excellent stories about pranking Josh over the years. Do you have a favorite time that you pranked Josh?

Jipp
Me getting pranked?

Pierce
Yeah!

Jipp
Oh.

Pierce
There’s one story that involved Kay, right? Where David and your mom were in cahoots. Is that right?

Jipp
Yeah. I had an exegesis class that got in touch with them.

Pierce
Is this appropriate for the airways? [LAUGHS]

Jipp
Yeah, I think my first exegesis class was—do you remember this?

Pao
Yes, I do.

Jipp
What do you remember of it?

Pao
Well, I got an email from your mom, right?

Jipp
Okay.

Pao
Asking me some information about class. They wanted to deliver something to your classroom and…on your birthday, perhaps?

Jipp
Oh, no. They built it up. They’re like, “You’ve been such a great professor and we’ve got this gift for you.” And, I’m like, “This is just heartwarming.” And I open it in front of them, and it’s like this family prank gag gift. [LAUGHTER]

Pierce
Oh, that’s right. Okay, so this is actually your mom pranking you. [LAUGHS]

Jipp
Those are more elaborate than me just leaving a rotten banana in David’s desk. [LAUGHS]

Pao
Yeah, it took me a while to figure out where it came from. I thought, “Did I bring a banana to my office?” [LAUGHTER]

Pierce
Yeah, you all have quite a back and forth going. Oh, goodness. Well, we’ll have to save some more stories for next time. We’ll let you brainstorm a little bit next time. Alright, well, that’s just the Foreword. If you want to hear more from Dean Pao, then be sure to check out his excellent commentary on Colossians and Philemon. Honestly, David, that’s one of my absolute favorites—it’s probably my favorite commentary on Colossians and Philemon. And I really love using it in the class. So with that in place, I think that your commentaries on the Pastorals—and you have another forthcoming one on Matthew, is that right?

Pao
Matthew, yeah.

Pierce
If you’ve ever used the Zondervan exegetical one on Colossians and Philemon, then you know that we’ve got lots to look forward to. The book that Josh mentioned, Acts and the Isaianic New Exodus, I think is probably one of your most prolific works and should continue to be read and explored. But, make sure to connect with Dr. Pao through these works, but the best way that you can connect with him is to enroll here at TEDS, especially in our M.A. and PhD in New Testament, where he’ll continue to teach—including the courses that we’ve mentioned already.

[THEME MUSIC BEGINS]

So we hope that you’ve enjoyed learning more about our friend, colleague, and leader, Dean David Pao. And with that, we want to thank our ruddy and delightful producer, Curtis Pierce; our fun and fantastic Graduate Assistant, Lauren Januzik; and all of you wonderful people for tuning in. So, thank you! I’m Madison Pierce.

Pao
Thank you, Madison, and thank you, Josh.

Pierce
Thanks, David.

Jipp
Thanks, David. Thanks.

Outro
Foreword is a podcast hosted by faculty at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. The views expressed by the hosts and guests of Foreword do not necessarily represent the views of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. You can subscribe to our newest episodes on your preferred podcast app or at forewordpodcast.com. Be sure to follow us on Twitter and Facebook @forewordpodcast to get updates and additional links to content. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School is located 25 miles north of Chicago, with extension sites across the country and online. Trinity educates men and women to engage in God’s redemptive work in the world by cultivating academic excellence, Christian faithfulness, and lifelong learning. You can find more information at teds.edu.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

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