Interview with Dean Graham Cole

01.28.2020  |  Season 1  |  Episode 2



SHOW NOTES

Tune in for this interview with our Dean, Dr. Graham Cole, hosted by Dr. James Arcadi and Dr. Michelle Knight.

We talk about angels, satan, and demons, as well as systematic theology and Vegemite.

Make sure to head over to Crossway to pick your copies of Graham’s two new books:
(1) Against the Darkness: The Doctrine of Angels, Satan, and Demons
(2) Faithful Theology: An Introduction

Transcript

[THEME MUSIC BEGINS]

Intro
[00:00:03] You’re listening to Foreword, a podcast from faculty at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, hosted by Michelle Knight, Josh Jipp, Madison Pierce, and James Arcadi. Foreword invites listeners into the mission of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School through conversations with faculty, staff, and guests.

James Arcadi
[00:00:17] I’m James Arcadi.

Michelle Knight
[00:00:18] And I’m Michelle Knight.

Arcadi
[00:00:19] We’re so stoked about today’s episode—

Knight
[00:00:21] He’s stoked, ladies and gentlemen. Did you catch that he’s “stoked?” James, where in the world did you learn to talk like that?

Arcadi
[00:00:27] Uh, that would be Southern California. What do you say around Chicagoland when you’re excited about something?

Knight
[00:00:34] I honestly don’t know. I… I mean I say, “super excited,” but I don’t think that’s standard.

Arcadi
[00:00:40] “Super excited!” “Über excited!”

Knight
[00:00:42] “Über excited!” That’s a nice German twist.

Arcadi
[00:00:44] I think if we were in…if we were in Boston, we’d be saying, “This episode is going to be wicked awesome!”

Knight
[00:00:49] Was it—“wicked” is what I was thinking from my short time in the East Coast. What do we say? “Really?”

Arcadi
[00:00:54] Well, regardless of your, uh, excitement levels and/or terminology one might use for that, we are all those things for today’s episode, when we’re going to be speaking with Graham Cole, who is the Dean of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, also known around here as, “The Dean.”

Knight
[00:01:11] [LAUGHS] That’s true, James. Yes, he is. He’s also Australian.

Arcadi
[00:01:16] He is, which you might notice by his accent.

Knight
[00:01:18] Mmhmm.

Arcadi
[00:01:19] Maybe we should ask him how he gets excited.

Knight
[00:01:20] [LAUGHS] We should. He might have a particularly helpful phrase for you.

Arcadi
[00:01:25] I can’t do an Australian accent.

Knight
[00:01:26] Please don’t do that.

Arcadi
[00:01:27] I won’t.

Knight
[00:01:28] Uh, so thank you for joining us, despite the fact that James is unable to do an Australian accent for you. We hope that today you get to know Dr. Cole a little bit better, and we look forward to introducing you.

Arcadi
[00:01:39] Yeah, he’s written a bunch of things recently, actually. He’s published on a number of topics throughout the course of his career, teaches a number of really exciting classes here that the students are really, um, eager to jump into. I know he teaches a course on the Holy Spirit, he teaches on atonement, and other text… uh, other doctrinal issues as well. Um, we’re going to speak a little bit today about a couple of his new publications. He had two books come out recently—both from Crossway—one on kind of a primer or an introduction to doing theology, and then another, more constructive piece on angels, satan and demons, which—not a topic we get a lot of play in in contemporary theology, I think, but still a really important one.

Knight
[00:02:27] Yeah, and one that we all have a lot of questions about.

Arcadi
[00:02:29] Lots of questions. Questions like, “Which angel do I talk to when I want to get this cool thing from them?”

Knight
[00:02:35] Is that a question you get really frequently?

Arcadi
[00:02:37] Well that one, too, and I want to know, really, do they have eyes that are as big as the Precious Moments statues indicate them to be?

Knight
[00:02:40] [LAUGHS] That’s not a question I’ve ever received in class. Usually, the questions I get…I actually had a student once ask me if—no, I shouldn’t say that—

Arcadi
[00:02:46] Ooh. That’d be bad.—

Knight
[00:02:46] Don’t say that. Cut that out. Curtis, cut that out.—

Arcadi
[00:02:47] [WHISPERS] Edit that out.
So, feel free to pause here for a moment, make up some toast, spread on some Vegemite, and enjoy this episode.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

Knight
[00:03:00] Uh, well Graham, we are so pleased that you could be here with us today. This is our, uh, inaugural podcast episode and we are really grateful that you took time to be with us today to talk about some of the things you’re working on, and in general to let our listeners get to know you just a little bit better.

Graham Cole
[00:03:19] That’s my pleasure, Michelle.

Knight
[00:03:20] [LAUGHS] I’m so glad. Uh, well, if you wouldn’t mind kind of introducing yourself to our listeners. Many of them know you, but if you could start by letting us know what your role here is at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, how long you’ve been here, sort of how you ended up here, that would be great.

Cole
[00:03:35] Right. Well, I’m presently the Dean of TEDS, and that involves academic leadership, making things…making sure things actually are working and staff, students, and faculty, are happy campers. Uh, but on task…on task of, um, serving our Lord with the gifts He’s given us with a view to impacting His world and His church. So I do that. I’m Senior Vice President of Education, and that’s looking at education more widely across the university. We’re one school out of four in the university. And, I’m professor of biblical and systematic theology.
Knight
[00:04:27] You wear several hats.

Cole
[00:04:29] Several hats. [KNIGHT LAUGHS] And, I first came to TEDS in 2002 as a professor of biblical and systematic theology. Before that for 10 years, I led an institution in Australia—Ridley College—which was both a college of the University of Melbourne with secular students and studies, and a theological college, so it was a jewel institution. And so for about 10 years, I was a prof here and then I was called down South—not the really deep South, that’s Australia, where I’m from [LAUGHTER]—but, the South, to Alabama, to Beeson Divinity School and Samford University, and I set up an Anglican institute there—

Knight
[00:05:10] Excellent.

Cole
[00:05:11]—and a certificate of Anglican Studies, and I thought that’s where I’d retire from. But then, TEDS came along and said they needed a Dean, and here I am—for the last five years.

Knight
[00:05:17] [LAUGHS] And we are very grateful for that.

Arcadi
[00:05:19] It’s great to hear some of that um…uh, professional background. I’m a little bit curious, Graham, just how you got into the study of theology. What sort of led you into…into this field?

Cole
[00:05:26] That’s an interesting question, because I was converted through hearing a sermon on the cross when I was about 18 years of age, and I then went to university and was really spiritually fed by the InterVarsity equivalent there, called EU, at the University of Sydney. And it was during that period I had a growing conviction that the Lord had called me to preach, so I went to Moore Theological College and trained to be an Anglican minister in the diocese of Sydney, which I was for three years. And then I was called back to Moore College where I’d trained, been trained, to be a junior lecturer. And they grew me as a systematic theologian over a number of years—I was there for about 13 years. Before I was called down to Melbourne, um, much South of Sydney, um, “South of the border, down Mexico way,” as they say in Australia.

[LAUGHTER]

And, uh, there I was at this Ridley College I mentioned, for 10 years. So I thought I’d be going back into the local church, into the parish, but it just increasingly became the case that my skill set was growing, my knowledge was growing, and the needs that I believed God would have me meet were in the theological world. And as a theologian, I’m a curious beast. They say, “Scholars want to know everything about something. The Pentateuch theologians want to know something about everything.” And I’m that sort of person who wants to know something about everything, but also theology attracts me because it actually asks normative questions, not just descriptive ones. So in the end, you’ve got to ask, “What ought we to believe and how ought we to live and what ought we to value? What ought we to set our hearts on as God’s people?” And then we all ask those questions, but the systematic theologian in particular needs to address those questions—and they animate me.

Arcadi
[00:07:50] Mmm, yeah. I mean, as a theologian I resonate a lot with that—wanting to know a bit about everything and having our hands in all these various sub disciplines and the like. Uh, were there particular…I don’t know, particular questions, particular theological questions or…or biblical questions that were important to you as you were going on in your…in your training and in your exploration of this vocation initially?

Cole
[00:08:14] Well, that’s a good question. I’ve been at this quite a…quite a long time, so questions do change. Um, but ultimately, it boils down to knowing God better and knowing what he wants me to do with my life better and how I can serve better. Um, I’ve had lots of very interesting questions I’ve chased down through the years. For example, “Why did God create so much?” I mean, if Christ didn’t die in every, you know, inhabited planet—if there are other inhabited planets, why this story? Why us? Um, didn’t…you know, God’s a bit of an overachiever—one might say. [KNIGHT LAUGHS] But then, I realized through study that there are more values than just moral values—good versus evil—or intellectual ones, like truth versus error. But there are aesthetic values—there’s beauty versus ugliness. And maybe the vastness of the universe, just one answer that I’ve come across is that God really enjoys, aesthetically, this vast universe, even though it was on this planet that Christ died. So they’re the sort of questions that have got me going.

Arcadi
[00:09:28] Yeah, that’s fascinating.

Knight
[00:09:30] That’s fascinating. So tell us what you’ve been working on recently. We know that you have a couple of projects that have recently been published. Could you kind of introduce us to those and kind of, what interested you about the questions you ended up answering in those books?

Cole
[00:09:47] Yes. Thanks, Michelle. There’s a recent book on angels, satan and demons. It’s a systematic theology work. I got interested in that because I thought there was a gap—a gap in the literature, but also a gap in my understanding, and I suspected the understanding of others when it comes to this order of creation. Because it’s so easy to think, even as Bible-believing people, that really, there’s only God and us. But there’s this other order of intelligent, creaturely life, some on God’s side and some not. And the Bible is rich with information about that, and it does impinge upon our lives. It’s become a bit of a blind spot in the lives of Western Christians, I think. And in some ways Western people—except on television and movies. [LAUGHS] Well, they fill it up with angels, satan and demons readily. But, in the Christian imagination, there’s an impoverishment. The Christian worldview needs to be as vast as the Bible’s presentation, and that means including this level of creaturely life. And if you do all sorts of very interesting things, you discover. For example, I often talk about the fallen world, the fallen creation. There’s a way in which that’s, you know, quite helpful. But actually, there’s one order of creation or part thereof that never fell—never fell away from God. So what does that mean? That means that there are creatures who’ve never ceased to praise God. God has never been without worshipers, even though so much of our part of the creation has been in rebellion.

Knight
[00:11:25] I’m not sure I’ve ever thought through it in quite those terms before, Graham. That’s helpful…and thought provoking.

Arcadi
[00:11:33] Mmm. Mmm. Um, so the—you mentioned a gap in the contemporary theological landscape with respect to the study of angels, satan and demon. So is the motivation for you in filling that gap because you see this…you see these topics covered in…in Scripture, and so we need to get a reckon…a reckon…we need to reckon with that, or do you also see practical reasons, too? Are there practical motivations for going into a study of…of uh, angels, satan and demon?

Cole
[00:12:07] James, I think there are practical applications of this. And so in the book, at the end of each major chapter, it’s got implications for a belief and behavior practice. For example, in our prayer life, do we ever pray in terms of, “Lord, thank you that on the cross you defeated satan, and as I go to minister this Sunday and teach your word in Sunday school or preach,” I’m speaking from my own perspective here, “‘May the strong man be bound,’ as Jesus said, ‘and his goods spoiled.’” Does my prayer life reflect the expanse of the biblical view of the world, or not? And if you’re going to a liturgical church like I am, we pray the Lord’s Prayer every Sunday, you know, “Deliver us from the evil one.” Well, if our Lord said that this is the sort of thing you ought to be praying about and we never do, what does that say about an incompleteness in our discipleship, as expressed in our prayer life? So that’s one practical outworking.

Arcadi
[00:13:13] Mmm. Yeah, that’s fantastic.

Knight
[00:13:16] That’s helpful. Now, you already alluded to the fact that media of all kinds uses images and characters of angels and demons and satan. If you had to address one or two of the most common misconceptions—either among those who would not identify as Christians or even among believers who kind of have just adopted a cultural view of those entities—if you could identify one or two of those misconceptions, what would they be?

Cole
[00:13:46] Well, that’s an interesting question too. I think C.S. Lewis was right. He was speaking about demons, but he said, “You can either be excessively interested in them or excessively disinterested.” So one of the problems is disproportionality. There are some Christians who are obsessed with angels, satan, and demons. And in so doing, I think you can actually skew your understanding of the Gospel. Because one of the ways you can spoil the Gospel is by adding something to Christ. You know, it’s, “Jesus and my good works,” or take something from Christ, “He is a great man, but he’s not God incarnate,” or having an interposition, you know, if, “I’m not going to get to Christ unless I go through a Saint or Mary,” for example. But another way the Gospel can be spoiled is through disproportion. You get a biblical truth, but it’s not a major truth, but it becomes the major truth. So I think that’s one problem that I see amongst even Bible-believing people. The other one, and this is secular people living out the entertainment side, is that they think we’re the only story—the human story is the only story. And I think that’s a great opportunity for the devil to do his mischief. Because in Scripture, there are two main ways that Scripture, as it were, presents a picture of the devil—in 2 Corinthians, through false teaching about God, is the angel of light. So they will be subtle. It will be through other agencies, human agencies. But then, in 1 Peter, the roaring lion, and that’s the context of persecution. That might not be so much our Western experience as Christians, but if I was a Christian in North Korea, I think it would be the roaring lion that I’d be worried about at the moment. So I don’t know if that’s addressing all that you asked for in that question, but that’s one particular response that comes to mind.

Arcadi
[00:15:47] Just…following up on that last point, so we often hear of this dichotomy or distinction between Western approaches to Christianity and non-Western approaches, in Subsaharan Africa and South America and the like. Um, are there things that—in your research on this book, and in looking at a diversity of sources and diversity of reflections on these kinds of questions—are there things that Western Christians can learn from the experience and/or the theology done in other places that help this…this kind of a study?

Cole
[00:16:21] I think that’s very much the case, James. We can now learn from brothers and sisters in other parts of the world. And in other parts of the world, especially the majority world, there’s a sensitivity to angels and satan and demons that we’ve tended to have lost, even in our evangelical world, say in North America. And so I’ve learned from their sensitivity, and that’s why resources like The Africa Bible Commentary and African works on theology that go through the traditional topics, but actually have “the spirits” being a topic in its own right because it’s so apposite to a world in which there are witch doctors and the occult so obviously around you. I’ve learned from that. It helps me not to develop that blind spot of which I’m speaking. And that blind spot I think was really illustrated for me when I was talking about this project with a particular publisher executive, actually. And he said, “You know, I believe this, everything that you’re saying I believe, but you know what?” And he was saying it in a way which was self-critical, he said, “But you know, actually, practically, it’s a bit like my believing in Harry Potter and Harry Potter’s world.” Well, that’s the sort of problem that I hope his book will help address. But there was another book you mentioned that’s the small book on how to do theology, called Faithful Theology, which is really geared for people in college, in a Christian college, or beginning theological students. It’s a way of trying to help people get a handle on how you actually do this thing called “theology,” that is, address that question of, you know, “What ought we to believe, value, live? How do we go about doing that?” And so, I’ve suggested a way of doing that that I’ve shared with students on three continents and it seems to have been helpful. And so I thought that putting it in print might not be a bad idea.

Knight
[00:18:23] Yes! Uh, and you mentioned this briefly, but, toward whom exactly is this book geared?

Cole
[00:18:30] It’s really geared, as I say, for a college Senior in the American world and for a first year theological student. But, the really theologically-interested lay person might also find it of use to them, too.

Arcadi
[00:18:50] So for that kind of an audience, could you give a little bit of a…a brief introduction to the introduction? Why would a lay person be, you know, someone who’s not in official ordained ministry or not in seminary, not an academic, why would they be interested in this text as an introduction to theological methodology?

Cole
[00:19:08] Well, they may end up being teachers in the church. They may be Sunday School teachers, they may be on a search committee for a pastor, or they may be on a college or seminary board. And so it might be good for them to know what I…well, what at least I think a sound way of doing theology is so they may know better questions to ask of prospective candidates, whether for the pastorate or for being a college president—or a seminary dean, even! [KNIGHT LAUGHS] Is that addressing your question?

Arcadi
[00:19:47] Yeah! Sure! And so does there…is their motive—those are various practical motivations that you have in place there as well. Is there a… is there a sense in here—and maybe not, I mean maybe you can just give us a sense of even the role that theology might play in someone’s own life, in someone’s own personal experience of God or personal relationship with God?

Cole
[00:20:10] Well, if we understand theology in the classic sense, it’s really talk about God. And that word “theology” in its Greek equivalent we can trace back to the third century. We’ve been talking about God for a long time. But there’s…and so every Christian in a sense is a theologian. But there are some of us who need to do it in a more intentional, organized way, especially if God has called us to be teachers in the church. Because if you’re a teacher of the church, you’re judged with greater strictness—James chapter three tells me. And so it might be an idea to know how to do it—

Knight
[00:20:43] Yeah—and that will then have its benefits for the person who is not called to that particular task of talking about God in that systematic, organized way—using obviously what is valuable from the Christian past and present by way of thought, by the Bible with the scriptures God’s addressed to us—His revelation to us. And then bringing those scriptures, that text and today’s world together wisely through the theology that we’ve been taught and developed, but to do it in a way that’s offered to God as an expression of our worship in response to the Gospel. So all those categories appear in this book. I talk about the word of revelation as foundation, the witness of Christian thought and practice, the world of human brokenness, the work of wisdom that brings these elements together, and then the way of worship that prayerfully offers out a labor to God in this area.

Arcadi
[00:21:52] That’s great.

Knight
[00:21:53] Now you alluded to the fact that we’ve been talking about God and we’ve been writing about it for quite some time. What is it about your approach that led to writing this book? What is it that was unique about your approach in the way that you put this introduction together that sets it apart from other things that had been written?

Cole
[00:22:11] Um, that’s a good question. I hope that one aspect of it that’s appealing is just clarity.

Knight
[00:22:20] Yeah.

Cole
[00:22:21] I hope it’s simple—

Knight
[00:22:22] Yeah.

Cole
[00:22:23]—as opposed to simplistic. And the way I distinguish those two is this way—it’s like a simple sermon, really. If it’s simple, no matter how much more someone learns later on, they don’t have to undo anything that they were told or read. If it’s simplistic, the more a person gets to know, the more that will break down in content and structure. So I hope that I’ve written something simple, which means accessible—

Knight
[00:22:54] Yes.

Cole
[00:22:54] —accessible to people. Uh, and therefore, accessible not only to students but also something that’s simple in the way I mentioned a teacher can really take and run with.

Knight
[00:23:03] Absolutely.

Arcadi
[00:23:04] Yeah. So if I might circle then back—speaking about teaching in some respects, but circle back to the angels, demons, satan texts there as well. And you mentioned sort of the gap in the Western Christian experience on these areas. So, I imagine, then, you think that we ought to be talking about this more. But if you’ve got…if you’ve got a pastor who’s preaching regularly, teaching adult ed regularly, trying to find that balance of not ex…you know, not excess but also not deficiency in terms of the frequency and amount of discussion. What might you commend? One sermon a year? Two sermons a year? A whole preaching series per year? Do you have some like, you know, practical ratio how we ought to weigh this particular doctrinal area?

Cole
[00:23:50] I think we need to be like the Puritans and preach 20 years on one text, which is my text.

[LAUGHTER]

Though, being serious, I would ideally like to recommend that the teaching in the churches is exposition of Scripture. And if it’s the regular exposition of Scripture, Old Testament and New Testament—maybe alternating between them—then you would keep the proportions right.

Arcadi
[00:24:24] Mmhmm.

Cole
[00:24:26] But also I think it’s…I really am attracted to the way the reformers catechized, or instructed, their people. They taught them something to believe—The Apostle’s Creed. They taught them a way to live in the Ten Commandments and they taught them a way to engage with God with the Lord’s Prayer. Luther even wrote to his barber, commending a way of praying—because the barber asked him a question, how to pray—using those three. But, if the Lord’s Prayer is something that’s taught or preached on every so many years in a cycle, especially within a church that prays it, “…then lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…,” would then open up that world. So, regular exposition of Scripture, the teaching of, say, the Lord’s Prayer, a little in other classical elements, and then maybe picking doctrinal themes. And so if you’re picking a doctrinal theme, then this would be one of them. And maybe you could even do it in relation to teaching about who we are. Because, just to give one other particular example, sometimes people think to be in the image of God means you are rational, you are moral—have a moral sense. You have a will. Well, then angels and satan are in the image of God. So even though they may be necessary conditions for being in the image of God, that cannot be all there is to the story of being in the image of God. And I would say—

Arcadi
[00:26:06] It’s not sufficient.

Cole
[00:26:07] You’ve got to…yeah, you’ve got to add in the vocational role of being God-like in how we relate to God’s creation, which has not been given to angels. And so I think there’s a—you know, to speak theology for a moment—a lot of treatments of the image of God I think haven’t reckoned with the problem of angels, satan, and demons.

Arcadi
[00:26:28] Mmm. So is that, um…that vocational point there—so in the book you talk a bit about, at least in the early on, the angels and demons, of sort of this “middling” aspect of creation. And in this speaks to the point you made about…we think of creation as “us and God,” but really there is this whole other realm or whole other “middling” component, middle component, to the creation that’s significant and worthy of speaking. And, as you described it there, humankind and “angelkind,” have some—share some similar qualities with the speak to personhood and…and rationality as well. So is it then vocation as that which is one of the primary distinctions between angels and humans? Or what other properties or characteristics would you point to as being those differentiating characteristics?

Cole
[00:27:22] I think our embodiment is a key difference between us and the angelic realm. And in some…many ways we are—I think it was described in past eras as this glorious amphibian. You know, an amphibian can live in water and in the air. And we have, as it were, as creatures, our connection with the world of the spirit and the world of matter. And so we are a microcosm, one could argue, of creation. And maybe that’s one way that part of our vocation—going back to Genesis—is a priestly one of offering. And so we offer, not only our own creaturehood to God, but the entire creation. And the supreme worshiper in His humanity is our Lord Jesus himself, as the book of Hebrews tells us. So that would be one answer to your question, James.

Arcadi
[00:28:13] Yeah. I mean that taxonomy—it seems a little bit like a Psalm 8 sort of motif—

Cole
[00:28:17] Yes.

Arcadi
[00:28:18]—where we have, “humans made a little lower than the angels and yet having dominion over the beasts of the field” and the like.

Cole
[00:28:25] And in the hierarchy of creatures. You know, I think there is a hierarchy. There’s something called “The Goal,”…“The Great Chain of Being,” in philosophy. Um, I…I wouldn’t call it that…I…“The Great Hierarchy of Creatureliness.” Um, but there’s something in that outer notion. That is to say that we as the images of God are at the top of that hierarchy in my view—greater than angels, because we judge angels, they don’t judge us. And so, one of the vocations, if you’d like, of God is to be the judge. And that “judging” has been delegated to us in that respect, says St. Paul, and I’m not going to disagree with him.

Arcadi
[00:29:12] Hmm. Mmhmm. So that sort of shifts “The Chain of Being” from an ontological key to a more vocational key or teleological key.

Cole
[00:29:27] Mmm. I think that they are some of the fascinating things that I…that have come out of doing the research for this book.

Arcadi
[00:29:36] Hmm. And it’s…it highlights too, um, one of these features of theology, that when you start looking at one aspect of theology—

Cole
[00:29:43] Yes, it connects!

Arcadi
[00:29:43]—you end up rethinking all these other aspects as well, so… here you have this study of angels and demons, and yet we’re getting these insights into human nature as well!

Cole
[00:29:49] Well, uh, there’s an appendix—the first appendix in this book sets out in a couple of pages a view of the entire universe—

[LAUGHTER]

—that takes into account these creaturely differences.

Knight
[00:30:00] Interesting. Well, speaking of creaturely differences, Graham, you, uh, come to us from Australia—

Cole
[00:30:08] Mmhmm.

Knight
[00:30:09] —and as such, we would love for you to kind of solve a mystery for our listeners. Could you tell us a little bit about Vegemite—

[ARCADI LAUGHS]

—and what it is? There’s some debate.

Arcadi
[00:30:22] Speaking of ontology.

Cole
[00:30:25] Vegemite. Vegemite is one of Australia’s contributions to universal culture. It is an acquired taste. [KNIGHT LAUGHS] It comes in small jars, and it is like tar to look at. [KNIGHT LAUGHS] And when you spread it on your cracker or your piece of bread, it does look like tar.

Knight
[00:31:01] Okay, yes.

Cole
[00:31:03] It’s very salty. It’s full of vitamins…and most of the world despises it.

[LAUGHTER]

So—

Arcadi
[00:31:12] They’ve been resisting your contribution. [KNIGHT LAUGHS]

Cole
[00:31:15] It is, and um, you know, as I say, appreciation grows slowly.—

Knight
[00:31:20] Of course.

Cole
[00:31:21] —But if you’re born and bred in Australia, you’ll be given it as a baby. [KNIGHT LAUGHS] So that helps with the acquiring of the taste. So vegetarians and vegans should just love it.

Knight
[00:31:30] Yes, absolutely!

Cole
[00:31:31] Oh no, wait a second. Does it have any beef in it? I don’t think so. I think that’s Marmite.

Knight
[00:31:34] Ah.

Cole
[00:31:34] The British have something that’s an inferior—
[LAUGHTER]

Knight
[00:31:40] Excellent.

Cole
[00:31:40]—version. But Vegemite, as “veg” suggests, is vegetable.

Knight
[00:31:47] Okay, well, excellent. That’s very helpful.

Cole
[00:31:51] But I must—for my American friends…my American friends the Australians like to really tease mercilessly when they come to Australia by…by giving them a jar of Vegemite and a knife and a piece of bread—toast—and the American friends put it on like peanut butter.

Knight
[00:32:12] Oh no.

Arcadi
[00:32:13] Like good Americans, right? More is more.

Cole
[00:32:14] Riiight. More is more, and that is fatal. You’ll need CPR after that.

[LAUGHTER]

Knight
[00:32:18] So a very thin spread.

Cole
[00:32:20] Very thin.

Knight
[00:32:21] Okay. With that important contribution, we are just so pleased that we got to spend some time. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Graham.

Cole
[00:32:26] Well my privilege, Michelle and James. It’s been fun.

Arcadi
[00:32:28] Yeah thanks, Graham! We appreciate it. Thank you!

[THEME MUSIC BEGINS]

And that’s just the Foreword. If any of this piqued your interest at all, you can totally follow up with a more substantive engagement with Dr. Cole’s work by getting his books. Again, that was one at the end of last year, 2019, Angels, Satan, and Demons. That was published by Crossway in the Foundations of Evangelical Theology Series. Do you know that series, Michelle?

Knight
[00:32:54] Yeah. It’s uh…it’s a solid one!

Arcadi
[00:32:55] It’s a solid one! It’s edited by our other colleague, John Feinberg—a number of topics there, by Trinity professors and non-Trinity professors, and this is, I think the latest installment in that series.

Knight
[00:33:05] Yeah. It’s a great resource for a lot of these topics.

Arcadi
[00:33:10] And then the other one, also published by Crossway just this year, 2020, is this introduction to theological methodology, that might be especially helpful for those advanced undergrads or curious laypersons who are excited about getting into the study of theology. It’s a short little book and a great little entryway into doing a bit more thinking about theology.

Knight
[00:33:27] Yeah. And this will probably make Graham uncomfortable so I’ll say this now rather than earlier, but Graham is really eloquent and very well spoken, and so reading these books should be a pleasure. We really hope that you enjoy encountering his work a little bit.

Arcadi
[00:33:45] Yeah, I enjoyed it! I enjoyed kind of the diversity of sources he pulls from. He pulls from pop culture at times as well a little bit in his Angels, Satan and Demons book—

Knight
[00:33:53] Yeah, that’s right!

Arcadi
[00:33:54]—which is kind of fun. So yeah, that’s really great.

Knight
[00:33:56] If you’re looking to find a little bit more Graham Cole in your life, feel free to check out TEDS. We’ve got a campus where we’re happy to have you—happy to see you—so if you want to get to hear a little more from him, that would be a great place to go.

Arcadi
[00:34:07] And, as always, we are grateful to our producer, Curtis Pierce, I’m grateful to Michelle Knight for being here with me today, we’re grateful to the Dean, Graham Cole, and we’re grateful to you for listening with us. I’m James Arcadi.

Knight
[00:34:20] And I’m Michelle Knight!

Outro
[00:34:25] Foreword is a podcast hosted by faculty at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. You can subscribe to our newest episodes on your preferred podcast app or at forewordpodcast.com. Be sure to follow us on Twitter and Facebook @forewordpodcast to get updates and additional links to content. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School is located 25 miles north of Chicago, with extension sites across the country and online. Trinity educates men and women to engage in God’s redemptive work in the world by cultivating academic excellence, Christian faithfulness, and lifelong learning. You can find more information at teds.edu.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

Follow @forewordpodcast.

All content © 2020 Foreword Podcast.